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# Lessons from Ivan Zhao
- URL: https://www.antoinebuteau.com/lessons-from-ivan-zhao/
- Published: 2026-06-30T17:20:37.000Z
- Updated: 2026-07-18T21:42:15.000Z
- Description: Ivan Zhao, co-founder of Notion, set out to help non-technical people build software tools, then responded to near failure by shrinking the company and rewriting its product from scratch—an instructive study in design, computing history, and lean operations.
- Author: Antoine Buteau
- Tags: Profile, Tech Entrepreneurs & Founders Profiles

![Visual summary of operating lessons from Ivan Zhao.](https://www.antoinebuteau.com/content/images/2026/06/lessons-from-ivan-zhao-profile-infographic.webp)

## Lessons from Ivan Zhao

Ivan Zhao co-founded Notion to let non-technical people build their own software tools. Before the app became a workplace standard, he and his co-founder nearly went broke, fired their team, and moved to Kyoto to rewrite it from scratch. The notes below cover his approach to design, computing history, and running lean companies.

### Part 1: The Kyoto Reset

1. **On running out of money:** "We built a platform that no one wanted and crashed the app. We had to sub-let our San Francisco office and move to Kyoto to survive." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
2. **On isolation:** "We didn't speak Japanese, so there was nothing to do but code. We programmed for eighteen hours a day in our underwear." — [*Source: \[Figma Config*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FigmaConfig&ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
3. **On firing friends:** "Letting go of the early team was the hardest thing. It was a reset we had to make to save the company, but it fundamentally changed how conservatively I hire today." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
4. **On rebuilding from scratch:** "We threw away all the old code. We realized we were trying to build the entire house, when we just needed to build the LEGO blocks first." — [*Source: \[Station F*](https://spoken.md/stationf/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
5. **On finding focus:** "The constraints of Kyoto stripped away all the Silicon Valley noise. There were no coffee meetings or networking events, just the product." — [*Source: \[Forbes*](https://www.forbes.com/profile/ivan-zhao/?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
6. **On surviving the trough:** "You have to genuinely love the craft of building the software, because if you are just in it for the success, the dark years will break you." — [*Source: \[First Block Podcast*](https://ntn.so/3Kir6g?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
7. **On rewriting the architecture:** "We switched to a block-based architecture. Every paragraph, image, and checkbox became a distinct unit in the database." — [*Source: \[Notion Blog*](https://www.notion.so/blog?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
8. **On returning to San Francisco:** "We didn't come back until we had a product that we knew worked. The reception for Notion 1.0 was immediate validation." — [*Source: \[Possible with Reid Hoffman*](https://possible.fm/podcast/ivanzhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
9. **On early pricing:** "We launched on Product Hunt with a very simple subscription model because we desperately needed the cash flow to hire our next engineer." — [*Source: \[Grit Podcast*](https://www.kleinerperkins.com/podcast/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*

### Part 2: Computing History

1. **On Douglas Engelbart:** "Engelbart's 'Mother of All Demos' in 1968 showed us that computers are meant to augment human intellect, not just process data." — [*Source: \[Ness Labs*](https://nesslabs.com/notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
2. **On Alan Kay:** "Alan Kay taught us that the computer is a medium, like paper or clay. It should be malleable enough for anyone to shape it." — [*Source: \[Station F*](https://spoken.md/stationf/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
3. **On lost computing ideals:** "The pioneers of the 1970s imagined a world where everyone was a programmer. We lost that when software became rigidly packaged applications." — [*Source: \[First Block Podcast*](https://ntn.so/3Kir6g?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
4. **On toolmaking:** "Humans are toolmakers. Software should be a tool that lets people make more tools, rather than a pre-fabricated solution." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
5. **On Ted Nelson:** "Project Xanadu and the idea of deep, bi-directional linking heavily influenced how we structured pages in Notion." — [*Source: \[Notion Blog*](https://www.notion.so/blog?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
6. **On Xerox PARC:** "They invented the GUI by studying how people think and work. We try to study cognitive science the same way to inform our interface." — [*Source: \[Grit Podcast*](https://www.kleinerperkins.com/podcast/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
7. **On computing as a bicycle:** "Steve Jobs called the computer a bicycle for the mind. We want Notion to be the custom assembly kit for that bicycle." — [*Source: \[Possible with Reid Hoffman*](https://possible.fm/podcast/ivanzhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
8. **On the command line:** "The slash command is a modern take on the terminal. It gives you the speed of a keyboard interface without having to memorize complex syntax." — [*Source: \[Figma Config*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FigmaConfig&ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
9. **On historical continuity:** "We are not inventing new paradigms. We are just executing the unfulfilled promises of the personal computing revolution." — [*Source: \[Station F*](https://spoken.md/stationf/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
10. **On medium versus tool:** "A tool does one job well. A medium allows you to express your own ideas. We wanted to build a medium." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*

### Part 3: Product Strategy

1. **On sugar-coated broccoli:** "You have to give users something immediately useful, like a simple text editor (the sugar), before exposing them to the powerful database features (the broccoli)." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
2. **On horizontal products:** "Building a horizontal product is agonizing because you are competing with everyone. But if you succeed, your total addressable market is anyone who uses a computer." — [*Source: \[Possible with Reid Hoffman*](https://possible.fm/podcast/ivanzhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
3. **On the LEGO block model:** "If you give people pre-built castles, they get bored. If you give them blocks, they will build things you never imagined." — [*Source: \[Ness Labs*](https://nesslabs.com/notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
4. **On replacing apps:** "Our goal wasn't to replace Google Docs or Trello specifically. It was to replace the need to switch between five different apps to do one project." — [*Source: \[Station F*](https://spoken.md/stationf/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
5. **On templates:** "Templates are how you educate users on the possibilities of a blank canvas without overwhelming them with an empty screen." — [*Source: \[First Block Podcast*](https://ntn.so/3Kir6g?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
6. **On feature requests:** "We read every feature request, but we rarely build exactly what users ask for. We try to build the underlying block that allows them to solve the problem themselves." — [*Source: \[Grit Podcast*](https://www.kleinerperkins.com/podcast/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
7. **On product-led growth:** "The product has to be so good for a single user that they organically force their team to adopt it. We never had a sales team in the early days." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
8. **On speed as a feature:** "A note-taking app has to open instantly. If there is a one-second delay, the user's thought is gone, and the product has failed." — [*Source: \[Possible with Reid Hoffman*](https://possible.fm/podcast/ivanzhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
9. **On constraints:** "We deliberately limit font choices and colors. Too much formatting freedom distracts from the actual work." — [*Source: \[Figma Config*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FigmaConfig&ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
10. **On bundling:** "The history of software is unbundling and bundling. We are a deliberate attempt to bundle the fragmented modern workspace." — [*Source: \[Station F*](https://spoken.md/stationf/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*

### Part 4: Design as a Medium

1. **On cognitive science:** "My background in cognitive science taught me that memory is spatial. That is why drag-and-drop and nesting pages feel natural to the brain." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
2. **On typography:** "We spent weeks choosing our default sans, serif, and mono fonts. Typography is the voice of the product, and it has to feel calm." — [*Source: \[First Block Podcast*](https://ntn.so/3Kir6g?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
3. **On blank states:** "A blinking cursor on a white screen is terrifying. We use placeholders and subtle prompts to invite the user to start typing." — [*Source: \[Grit Podcast*](https://www.kleinerperkins.com/podcast/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
4. **On the aesthetic of quietness:** "Enterprise software is usually loud, full of colorful buttons and alerts. We wanted an aesthetic of quietness, like a clean sheet of paper." — [*Source: \[Figma Config*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FigmaConfig&ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
5. **On illustration:** "The black-and-white, hand-drawn illustrations we use are meant to feel human and slightly imperfect, contrasting with the rigid software grid." — [*Source: \[Ness Labs*](https://nesslabs.com/notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
6. **On craftsmanship:** "If the pixel alignment is off by one unit, the user might not consciously notice, but they will unconsciously feel that the software is fragile." — [*Source: \[Possible with Reid Hoffman*](https://possible.fm/podcast/ivanzhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
7. **On physical metaphors:** "We design software with physical metaphors in mind, like paper, binders, and blocks. It grounds abstract data in physical reality." — [*Source: \[Station F*](https://spoken.md/stationf/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
8. **On minimalism:** "True minimalism isn't removing features. It is hiding complexity until the exact moment the user needs it." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
9. **On dark mode:** "Dark mode shouldn't just be an inversion of colors. It requires a complete re-balancing of contrast to reduce eye strain." — [*Source: \[First Block Podcast*](https://ntn.so/3Kir6g?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*

### Part 5: Lean Operations

1. **On jazz mode:** "I prefer running the company in jazz mode. You don't need a rigid hierarchy if you have a group of highly skilled individuals playing off each other in sync." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
2. **On hiring slowly:** "We operated with a team of less than 20 people while serving millions of users. Adding people usually slows down the product cycle." — [*Source: \[Forbes*](https://www.forbes.com/profile/ivan-zhao/?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
3. **On generalists versus specialists:** "In the early days, we only hired engineers who had a deep sense of design. You can't separate the code from the user experience." — [*Source: \[Grit Podcast*](https://www.kleinerperkins.com/podcast/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
4. **On preserving culture:** "Culture degrades when headcount doubles too fast. We intentionally constrained our hiring to maintain a high talent density." — [*Source: \[First Block Podcast*](https://ntn.so/3Kir6g?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
5. **On office space:** "Our first office looked like an art studio. The environment you work in dictates the quality of the product you ship." — [*Source: \[Figma Config*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FigmaConfig&ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
6. **On funding:** "We delayed taking venture capital for as long as possible because we wanted the time to get the product right without the pressure of a ticking clock." — [*Source: \[Possible with Reid Hoffman*](https://possible.fm/podcast/ivanzhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
7. **On decentralization:** "A healthy organization pushes decision-making to the edges. If everything requires my approval, we are moving too slowly." — [*Source: \[Station F*](https://spoken.md/stationf/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
8. **On refounding:** "A company has to be refounded at different stages of scale. The systems that got you to ten employees will break at a hundred." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
9. **On meeting culture:** "We write everything down. If a proposal isn't documented clearly in a page, we don't have a meeting about it." — [*Source: \[Ness Labs*](https://nesslabs.com/notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*

### Part 6: Building Notion

1. **On community support:** "Our community of ambassadors built Notion's early momentum. They made YouTube tutorials and shared templates when we didn't have a marketing budget." — [*Source: \[Station F*](https://spoken.md/stationf/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
2. **On international expansion:** "We saw massive adoption in Japan, Russia, and Korea before we even localized the app. Good design translates across languages." — [*Source: \[Grit Podcast*](https://www.kleinerperkins.com/podcast/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
3. **On scaling databases:** "During COVID, our database capacity was pushed to the absolute limit. We were rewriting the infrastructure while the plane was flying." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
4. **On dogfooding:** "We run the entire company on Notion. If a feature is annoying for our users, it's annoying for us, and we fix it immediately." — [*Source: \[First Block Podcast*](https://ntn.so/3Kir6g?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
5. **On early feedback:** "I used to personally sit in coffee shops and watch people try to use the app for the first time. It is the most humbling exercise a founder can do." — [*Source: \[Figma Config*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FigmaConfig&ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
6. **On building for teams:** "A product is only a collaborative workspace if it handles permissions gracefully. That was one of the hardest technical hurdles we solved." — [*Source: \[Possible with Reid Hoffman*](https://possible.fm/podcast/ivanzhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
7. **On branding:** "We wanted the brand to feel like a friendly local bakery, not a massive enterprise software conglomerate." — [*Source: \[Ness Labs*](https://nesslabs.com/notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
8. **On the first thousand users:** "We manually emailed every person who signed up in the first year to ask them what they were using the tool for." — [*Source: \[Station F*](https://spoken.md/stationf/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
9. **On pivots:** "Notion 2.0 was the real pivot. Moving from a document-centric model to a database-centric model unlocked the real power of the product." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*

### Part 7: AI and the Future

1. **On generative AI:** "AI isn't just a new feature, it is a new interface paradigm. Natural language is replacing the mouse as the primary way we manipulate software." — [*Source: \[Possible with Reid Hoffman*](https://possible.fm/podcast/ivanzhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
2. **On context in AI:** "An AI assistant is only as smart as the data it has access to. Because all your company's knowledge is already in Notion, the AI has perfect context." — [*Source: \[No Priors Podcast*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nopriors&ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
3. **On writing assistants:** "We integrated AI not to write for you, but to help you mold your thoughts, like a sparring partner for your ideas." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
4. **On automation:** "In the future, you won't need to manually update a status board. AI agents will read your commits and update the documentation automatically." — [*Source: \[First Block Podcast*](https://ntn.so/3Kir6g?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
5. **On the fear of AI:** "Technology has always displaced certain tasks, but it elevates human ambition. We will just focus on higher-level problem solving." — [*Source: \[Grit Podcast*](https://www.kleinerperkins.com/podcast/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
6. **On search:** "Keyword search is dead. With Q&A AI, you can ask a question and get a synthesized answer based on thousands of internal documents." — [*Source: \[Possible with Reid Hoffman*](https://possible.fm/podcast/ivanzhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
7. **On AI agents:** "We are moving from software as a tool to software as a teammate. Agents will work asynchronously alongside you." — [*Source: \[No Priors Podcast*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nopriors&ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
8. **On interface evolution:** "The chat box is just a transitional interface. Eventually, AI will be invisibly embedded into the fabric of the workspace." — [*Source: \[Station F*](https://spoken.md/stationf/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
9. **On retaining human touch:** "Even as we automate tasks with AI, the aesthetic output must still feel distinctly human. The interface must remain calm." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*

### Part 8: Personal Philosophy

1. **On childhood hobbies:** "I learned to code because I wanted to modify video games, and I learned art through watercolor painting. Both disciplines require patience and an eye for structure." — [*Source: \[Substack Profile*](https://notion.substack.com/)*\]*
2. **On patience:** "It took us five years to become an overnight success. You have to be willing to be misunderstood for a very long time." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
3. **On reading:** "I read a lot of history. If you understand how the Industrial Revolution reshaped society, you can better predict how the information age will do the same." — [*Source: \[Grit Podcast*](https://www.kleinerperkins.com/podcast/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
4. **On optimism:** "To be a founder, you have to possess a delusional level of optimism. You have to believe you can bend reality to your will." — [*Source: \[Possible with Reid Hoffman*](https://possible.fm/podcast/ivanzhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
5. **On success:** "Success isn't reaching a valuation. It is walking into a cafe and seeing someone using the tool you built to run their life." — [*Source: \[Station F*](https://spoken.md/stationf/ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
6. **On failure:** "Our near-collapse in Kyoto was the best thing that ever happened to me. It burned away my ego." — [*Source: \[First Block Podcast*](https://ntn.so/3Kir6g?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
7. **On craftsmanship versus scale:** "The tension of running a company is balancing the slow, meticulous work of a craftsman with the aggressive growth expectations of venture capital." — [*Source: \[Lenny's Podcast*](https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
8. **On art and tech:** "Software engineering is the most accessible art form in the modern era. You write lines of logic, and they manifest as an interactive experience." — [*Source: \[Figma Config*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FigmaConfig&ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
9. **On continuous learning:** "The moment you think you have figured out how to run the company, the scale breaks your systems, and you are a beginner all over again." — [*Source: \[Possible with Reid Hoffman*](https://possible.fm/podcast/ivanzhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*
10. **On legacy:** "I don't care if people remember my name. I want them to remember the feeling of empowerment they had when they built something in Notion." — [*Source: \[Ness Labs*](https://nesslabs.com/notion-ivan-zhao?ref=antoinebuteau.com)*\]*